PREVIOUS
NEXT
All content Copyright 2023 Fixed Income Insights. All rights reserved.
Mike Nicholas, BDA:
Mike Nicholas, BDA:
Welcome to another edition of Bonding Time, the monthly podcast of the Bond Dealers of America as the only DC based trade group focused on the US bond markets. Today we're pleased to continue our series on technology and market structure. Thank you for joining, and please look for many more podcasts from the BDA in 2023.
Now let me turn to my colleague, Michael Decker, to host this podcast along with Eugene Grinberg and Gregg Bienstock of SOLVE.
Now let me turn to my colleague, Michael Decker, to host this podcast along with Eugene Grinberg and Gregg Bienstock of SOLVE.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Can you talk a little bit about SOLVE? I'm generally familiar with Lumesis, which is a recent SOLVE acquisition, but can you tell me about the broader firm and the firm's focus?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Absolutely. So at SOLVE, our focus is on price transparency and fixed-income markets. That's been our broad focus since we launched the firm in 2011. So we're looking to address the need for more transparency from a price discovery perspective across the buy side, the sell side, and a number of the service providers to the fixed income space that need to get more observable data. So more bids and offerings across the various asset classes where we play.
Traditionally, the price transparency came from some of the trade reporting initiatives such as TRACE, MSRB, as well as evaluate pricing providers that mainly utilize models and assumptions to try to price illiquid fixed income securities. But we saw an opportunity to deliver more transparency by aggregating live pricing, live bids and offerings, from market participants that are exchanged throughout the day in the daily workflow between the buy side and the sell side.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Great. And can you tell me about your roles at the firm and how did you come to be at SOLVE?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, of course. So I'm one of the co-founders, Gerard Nealon and I co-founded SOLVE together in 2011. My background is I started my career in fixed income markets as a developer, as a software engineer, building systems to support risk management, analytics, portfolio management and so on, and ultimately wanted to transition into more of a business role.
So around 2008, 2009, during the credit crisis, I spent more time as a quant, as structure. I was doing evaluations of difficult value securities. I got a good amount of exposure to the buy side, to the sell side, and really was able to see some of the challenges and some of the opportunities that existed.
When we formed SOLVE in 2011, this made the most sense to us based on our exposure in prior years, that fixed income really needed more price transparency and it was there. There was a lot of chatter between the buy side and the sell side, but there was no effective way to aggregate that pricing. So that's where the idea of SOLVE was born.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
And, Gregg, how did you come to be where you are today?
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
So a little bit of a similar story with Eugene. Started my career doing something else, a lawyer by training, and then ultimately ended up over at Ambac. And in 2010, Tim Stevens and I co-founded Lumesis. And, Michael, as you noted, we've been longtime members of the BDA, and both Tim and I from the perspective when we started Lumesis to where we are today, a lot of what our focus is around solving, I'll call it the reg tech area, so retail, time, and trade disclosure, SEC 15c2-012, best execution.
And then most recently we launched pricing platform, which, interestingly when we launched that platform, Michael, it was not designed with the regulatory bend in mind, but it was actually to help people basically become more efficient in terms of creation of scales. And then, as you know, most recently the MSRB came out with compliance resource where new issue pricing is a focus as it relates to underwriters and MAs.
So fast forward to where we are today. My role since the acquisition is that I'm a group head for municipal markets for SOLVE and a great opportunity. And one of the great things about the acquisition is our entire Lumesis team is part of the SOLVE Family now. It's really great integration.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Great. So can we talk a little bit about the acquisition, and what's the strategy behind the Lumesis acquisition? And Lumesis is not the only acquisition that SOLVE has made recently. I know there've been at least a couple others.
So what's the broader strategy around growth at SOLVE, and are you looking at other possible acquisition targets as well?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, no, great question. So historically, the SOLVE team, the SOLVE platform, has focused on aggregating pricing data. As I mentioned, we built proprietary tools that are driven by natural language processing and machine learning that are really good, really accurate, at reading chatter between market participants and aggregating pricing.
And our focus really has been on aggregating as much data as accurately and as real time as possible. So the idea of the platform, so there's always there's three pillars. One being data, the other two being workflow and analytics. And our focus in phase one of SOLVE has really been on data and somewhat on workflow and analytics to support researching and visualization and some of the workflow processes.
Now, as we look to generate insights from the data, it was incredibly important to develop more workflows and more analytics, specifically around some of the existing processes on the buy side and the sell side, having to do with secondly markets, private markets.
And so on the one hand, the strategy behind these three acquisitions that we've completed in the last 10, 11 months or so, advantage data, best credit, and the most recent Lumesis, is really around beefing up sort of the overall platform specifically around workflow and analytics. So that's one piece. Gregg mentioned some of the great products that legacy Lumesis developed under the DIVER umbrella, solving some of the regulatory issues, some facilitating primary issuance of munis, some helping on the secondary side.
So the idea is to integrate the data side of SOLVE with some of these great products, the legacy Lumesis DIVER products that are focused on municipal markets, the corporate credit products are coming from the Advantage Data side, and ultimately unite this under a singular SOLVE market data platform.
And then just real quick, the second piece specifically around Lumesis, SOLVE, I think legacy SOLVE, a lot of the team have a strong background in credit markets and securitized products. We've had the municipal bond offering for a few years now, but I think there's no question that the Lumesis team is widely seen as a market leader, as an expert, in municipal bond technology. So getting that type of street cred that capability in house was incredibly valuable.
And Gregg and Tim have built a phenomenal company, great products, and I'm super happy to be one family now.
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
Michael, I just want to add to that because one of the things that excited us as we were talking with Eugene and Gerard and others about the acquisition was the strategic focus going forward. So it was an opportunity, as Eugene said, to leverage the expertise that we bring to the table, municipal market, and on the software side of the equation.
But there was also this really unique opportunity for us to be able to bring SOLVE's unique data and capabilities to our existing clients, our then existing clients, which is part of the plan going forward. And then the idea to also where it makes sense, leverage some of the software that we've built and incorporate, again, SOLVE's unique data, but going out into different markets. Something that we've always been just muni focused, and so the strategic plan, as we had talked about it as we were going through the acquisition process, just made so much sense for us and created really, really exciting opportunity.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Yep. Great. You mentioned unique data products. Are you talking primarily about the pre-trade quotation data or something more than that or something different?
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
It would be the pre-trade quotes and the technology built around that to be able to parse and make that data available to the market.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Great. And where does the pre-trade data come from?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
So we have strong relationships with the buy side and the sell side community, and the data comes from us parsing chatter, email attachments, and so on.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
I see.
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
So the way we go about it is some clients are parsing their messages, their incoming messages, for their own benefit, and they're able to see more detail, more attribution on where that's coming from since it's their internal messages that are getting parsed.
And in addition to that, there's a crowdsource data product which is anonymized, which provides the larger fixed income ecosystem with more transparency into where bonds are being quote.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Those are unique data for sure.
You mentioned both the buy and sell side interest in SOLVE products. Are both sides looking for the same kinds of information, and where is the biggest growth potential for SOLVE? Buy side or sell side, or is it both?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
It really is both. I think what's been incredibly exciting over the last 12 years or so is working with a very diverse clientele between the buy side and the sell side, different use cases between the front office, middle, and back office, some of the newer algo type use cases that we've been working with.
Ultimately, I think everyone's dealing with the same challenges. It's incredibly time consuming to figure out what the value of the bond is. That's one side of it. And on the other side of it is between the buy side and the sell side. There's a sense that you're always working with incomplete or stale information. So there's real risk in making good decision.
And really this is where the data comes from. So the key value proposition across the buy side and the sell side is save me time and give me confidence that I'm making good decision.
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
Yeah, no, I was just going to add to that. When I think about just in the muni space, I think the opportunity is, as Eugene said, it's really both sides of the market. The combination of the richness, uniqueness of the data combined with some of the technology that we have available is going to be really useful to our existing client base and the sell side. And it's going to also allow us to go beyond where we are with the buy side as well and deliver something of true additional value to that side of the market.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Yep, I understand. So what are the biggest challenges in providing accurate fixed income data? And particularly how do you address data quality issues ensuring that the data that ends up on customers' screens is accurate and complete?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, no, that's a great question. So where we see our value, or this historically where we saw the value of the data, is that we try to insert ourselves as little as possible into the flow of the data.
So on the one hand, the machine is reading chatter and trying to make sense of it and trying to decide whether something is a price or spread or yield, which is not always obvious in the context of the message. Then there are a number of algorithms that are meant to clean up that data and help decide is this really a price or is this really a yield? Is this potentially outside the bounds of what we think is reasonable?
But there's always that trade off where, especially when markets are volatile and the spread between a bit an offer could be quite wide, am I almost hiding too much information just because it appears to be so volatile? So where's that fine line between showing too much but it could be less accurate, or not showing enough, but potentially leaving out valid data. So that's always been a bit of a challenge. And as I mentioned, it becomes a greater challenge during periods of volatility, which we've been dealing with.
But then part of it is, and this is where I think the larger team is coming together to make some more sense of some of the nuances of individual bonds. That's the other challenge with fixed income is there's so many idiosyncrasies between not just asset classes, but if you look at municipals or you look at corporates, there's all sorts of optionality built into bonds. So just knowing what they are will absolutely help these post-processing algorithms throw out bad data and make sure that we don't throw out good data.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Yeah, good. Maybe we can dig into this point a little further. What are the unique challenges that are associated with various product categories, especially a product like municipals where there's so many CUSIPs, so many relatively illiquid CUSIPs from such a wide group of issuers? How do you make sense of all that?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think every market probably worth mentioning. So we play in six high-level asset classes, municipals being one of the six. The other five are all securitized products, which really encompasses a number of sub-asset classes that are quite diverse: CLOs, mortgage backed securities, agencies, non-agencies, all sorts of ABS products, consumer, non-consumer, and so on. So all of those are under the securitized products umbrella.
Then we have corporates, which are all the different flavors of investment grade, high yield, emerging markets, sovereign, and so on, syndicated bank loans.
Then we have convertible bonds and single-name credit default swaps.
So very diverse grouping of asset classes. And every one has its own nuances. But specifically when you look at uniqueness, this is where a lot of our backgrounds being in fixed income markets really comes in handy. So understanding the nuances of where certain types of products will be quoted in the price domain versus the spread domain or yield domain. So building that intelligence into the machine to make sure that we are collecting as much and as accurate as possible.
Because otherwise there's way too many nuances and it's one solution is really not going to be one size fits all.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Yep. No, what you described is a combined millions of CUSIPs.
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Absolutely.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
It's a daunting data set.
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
Michael, just to add to one aspect there around on the muni side, again, you mentioned the point the illiquidity and how do you ensure that what you have? So there's the component aspects that Eugene's described in terms of what SOLVE quotes is, can and does do.
And then there's also the aspect of comparables in the market as well because of the inherent illiquidity that's in the muni space and the ability to look at the structural and credit characteristics of a given bond, of a given CUSIP, and be able to identify other comps in the market as well as to enrich the data that's available.
And this is something that exists both in the pricing platform under the DIVER banner right now, but it's also to an extent something that's also available when we think about what SOLVE is doing as well.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Yep. Great.
I'm somewhat familiar with Lumesis' product offerings, especially with respect to compliance focused solutions. Does SOLVE offer a similar set of products related to compliance?
And in general when you're either building new products or refining existing products that are compliance focused, how closely do you work with regulators to ensure that the service you're providing to members meets regulators' needs for compliance?
I'm somewhat familiar with Lumesis' product offerings, especially with respect to compliance focused solutions. Does SOLVE offer a similar set of products related to compliance?
And in general when you're either building new products or refining existing products that are compliance focused, how closely do you work with regulators to ensure that the service you're providing to members meets regulators' needs for compliance?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, so I'll definitely let Gregg jump in and some of the products on the legacy Lumesis side that are kind of meant to address regulatory requirements.
So on the sell side, as I mentioned earlier, our focus has really mainly been on providing data and the data is valuable for a number of different use cases. We do have some clients that are utilizing it in the context of best X and some of the validation around some of the valuations that they're receiving from some of their primary providers.
But I think for the most part, our focus has been more on front office price discovery and transparency across the different asset classes that we spoke about.
Gregg, you could probably talk to what the focus has been with some of the DIVER products.
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
Sure.
On the regulatory side, Michael, as you noted, we've been very active over the years starting with helping folks with retail time, a trade disclosure through the DIVER Advisor platform. So that's MSRB Rule G-47, and also supervision. We built in a best X tool into that platform, but also into our pricing platform.
And then obviously also through our Underwriter application work to help folks address their obligations under SEC Rule 15c2-12 and their diligence obligation there.
And then most recently, as I mentioned at the outset, one of the unintended regulatory places where we help out is around new issue pricing given the MSRB's compliance resource that came out for Underwriters and MAs. What we historically have done is you never get what I'll call the good housekeeping seal of approval from a regulator, but we've always sought out feedback from the MSRB, from FINRA, from the SEC as we've built and as we've completed platforms that touch on, even tangentially, something from a regulatory perspective with the idea, again, not the expectation that we're going to get the good housekeeping seal of approval, but more so to understand from the regulator if they think we're missing anything.
They know what they're looking for, whether it's an examiner or the rule maker as the case may be. And what we are trying to do is to deliver to the market something that's going to help them meet their regulatory obligation in a very efficient and cost effective way. And so that dialogue with the regulators has always been and will always be important, so long as we are touching anything related to regulation.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Great.
So we've had some preliminary conversations with the staff at FINRA and MSRB about an initiative that they're undertaking to look at whether to require collection. And I think there wouldn't be dissemination initially, but I think that that's in mind for some time in the future. Collection and dissemination of quotation information for corporate bond trades at FINRA and municipals at MSRB. Do you all have a take on what that would look like, and what would be the effect on the market?
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
I personally don't. As this subject has come up, I spend more time listening trying to understand. And similar to how in the past, and this goes back a bit, same thing with trade data. It was first they were going to collect it and then ultimately became available to the market. So it's really understanding what it is ultimately that they are looking to collect, how they're going to go about doing that.
And part of what's interesting in this equation is what SOLVE does today and the credibility that SOLVE has in the marketplace, being able to provide this information already to our clients. So it's interesting. It may be something they're looking at from a regulatory standpoint, but, at least with regard to our clients, it's something that they already have access to that information.
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
From Gregg's point, from a client's perspective, we specifically design a solution that fits into the existing way that they run their businesses. We tap into the flow of messages between their counterparties. We aggregate the data. Data's available in our platform through data feeds so they could easily integrate it into in-house systems.
So I think from a client's perspective, they're achieving the objective of seeing a lot of the quote data that's available to them in a singular environment where they don't have to piecemeal it together. And, as I mentioned, that that's been the focus of our platform, just make it as easy as possible without changing the way that they're used to doing things.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Sure. Great.
In which product sectors do you see the greatest demand and the greatest potential for growth in terms of the need for the kind of market data that SOLVE provides?
In which product sectors do you see the greatest demand and the greatest potential for growth in terms of the need for the kind of market data that SOLVE provides?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
I know this is probably a boring answer, but it really has been across the board. I think what's particularly exciting for us with the Lumesis acquisition is getting deeper into municipal markets, leveraging some of the tools that Gregg and Tim have developed, integrating our data into the legacy DIVER products so that some of the existing tools around primary markets and secondary markets could leverage quote data on top of the other data sources that they're already leveraging. That's exciting, so we'll look forward to making some product announcements over the next couple of quarters.
But the truth is it really has been across the board.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Great. That's a great segue. I was just going to ask you about what we can expect to see next year at SOLVE. Any new products or product enhancements coming down the line that we should keep an eye out for?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Gregg, you were going to talk about some of the pricing platform enhancements, and then I could jump in on a few other things.
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
Sure, sure.
And just, Michael, on your last question, I'll just say one of the things that I have found exciting is, and Eugene mentioned this, is as we've spoken to our legacy clients, existing clients, around the acquisition and what SOLVE does, I think there's a tremendous opportunity for growth on the muni side. I think we seemingly as munis have always seemingly operated a few years behind the rest of the market when it comes to technology and data. So I think a big growth opportunity for bringing what SOLVE offers.
And then as we look ahead, we'll be continuing to do some, I'll call it refinements and enhancements to our pricing platform. So as a module, we just added something called a debt analysis, which is pretty in depth for every algor in the marketplace. We'll be looking at integrating some of the SOLVE quotes data, especially on the secondary pricing tool and the muni trade ticker. So that'll really enrich both of those, not just to have actual trades, but also to have the quotes as well.
And then one of the things that we'll be working on and releasing hopefully late '23 built into the pricing platform as well as another module will be a tool to perform refunding analyses, which hopefully at some point, again, will be meaningful to the market when rates start to turn the other way.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Let's hope so.
Gregg Bienstock:
Gregg Bienstock:
Yeah, exactly. And that's just a microcosm. The other piece is looking at some enhancements to the pricing platform as well. That'll be most appealing to the buy side. We think there's a real opportunity there, thinking about the presentation and display of data in a way that's slightly different than we do right now, that'll be more meaningful to those on the buy side.
Eugene?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, I mean, so more broadly, as I mentioned, some of the early focus has been on collecting as much data as possible. What our clients are asking for, and what a roadmap is starting to look like, is more around generating insights from the underlying data. It's identifying comparable securities, creating summaries across asset classes and sectors, identifying relative value where comparable securities are trading rich or cheap vis a vis of each other.
We have a number of strong products in the family now, so some of the legacy Lumesis, legacy Advantage, legacy SOLVE, which have some interesting analytics and workflows. Some are asset class specific or use case specific, so really bringing all of this together into more of a singular offering and doing a best of breeds when it comes to the three pillars: data, workflow, analytics.
So yeah, there's a lot in the immediate as well as long-term pipeline.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Great. Looking forward to hearing more about all that into next year.
So we've covered a lot, but is there anything we've missed either in terms of SOLVE and your focus and priorities, or any thoughts on the general fixed income markets? Any closing thoughts in general?
So we've covered a lot, but is there anything we've missed either in terms of SOLVE and your focus and priorities, or any thoughts on the general fixed income markets? Any closing thoughts in general?
Eugene Grinberg:
Eugene Grinberg:
Yeah, no, absolutely. So once again, thank you for hosting us. I love telling the story of our products and our data, how differentiate the data is. Especially in times of volatility, I think access to more price transparency, facilitating price discovery, liquidity analysis, is incredibly valuable.
And as I mentioned, really across all of our asset classes we've been fortunate enough to work with some amazing customers across the buy side and the sell side and help them achieve the two objectives that we discussed. So save them lots of time and help them make better decisions.
So really looking forward to continuing to develop more functionality, listen to our customers, and continue bringing more value to the ecosystem.
Michael Decker:
Michael Decker:
Thank you both Gregg and Eugene for joining us this morning. And thanks especially for SOLVE's support of BDA's activities. We greatly appreciate your sponsorship, and we look forward to continuing to work with you next year and beyond.
That concludes today's Bonding Time podcast. Thank you all for joining us and stay tuned for the next edition coming up soon.
That concludes today's Bonding Time podcast. Thank you all for joining us and stay tuned for the next edition coming up soon.